{"content":{"sharePage":{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"60021855","dateCreated":"1345685734","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JAMESB00","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JAMESB00","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1288998772\/JAMESB00-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/60021855"},"dateDigested":1532653216,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Ruth's name.","description":"This may be a little bit of a side note... But in reading the novel I realized that Ruth's last initial was never mentioned. All of the other main character's initials are mentioned, such as Kathy H., and Tommy D., but Ruth's is not. I found this interesting, but can not find the reasoning anywhere in the book. Could it be because Ruth was more mysterious than Kathy and Tommy? Is there any reason for this at all? There may not be, but to me it just seems odd. What do you guys think? Have you noticed any other details that go away from the pattern like this in the novel? Thoughts\/opinions.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[],"more":0}]},{"id":"60012782","dateCreated":"1345558886","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TYLERV1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TYLERV1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/60012782"},"dateDigested":1532653216,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Feeling Normal ","description":"Throughout the novel, many times the kids just want to be like the &quot;normal world&quot; or at least treated like it. Although it never happened it was the only hope they had. \u201cDidn\u2019t we all dream from time to time about one guardian or other bending the rules and doing something special for us? A spontaneous hug, a secret letter, a gift?\u201d(60). I wonder though in this quote if Kathy wants to get special treatment to feel like she is important and matters in the world or if she wants to feel normal.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55887769","body":"I think that even though the kids wanted to be like the &quot;normal world,&quot; they had no idea what &quot;normal&quot; was. They had no contact with the outside world except through the Sales and Madame, so their perceptions of &quot;normal&quot; might be off.","dateCreated":"1345604327","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"SHANET14","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/SHANET14","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55895393","body":"I agree with Katie, it's normal to want to feel special. I think they wanted to be normal in the sense that they would be free to do whatever they want instead of being destined to only give donations.","dateCreated":"1345646783","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JAMESK48","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JAMESK48","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55896757","body":"Although you all make valid points about being normal amongst others like Kathy from Hailsham, according to people from the outside world such as Madame, they are the furthest creatures from normal that could ever be thought up. After finding out Madame is, in fact, afraid of them, Kathy realizes that &quot;the first time you glimps at yourself through the eyes of a person like that [a normal person], it's a cold moment. It's like walking past a mirror you've walked past every day of your life and suddenly it shows you something else. Something troubling and strange&quot; (Ch. 3). So I think all of the Hailsham students knew from the beginning or at least found out somehow along the way that they were never going to be like normal people. They knew they were &quot;special&quot; and &quot;different&quot; and that it was hard for them to fit in in the real world.","dateCreated":"1345652190","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MEGANY2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MEGANY2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55900009","body":"I agree with Megan. Being normal for us is very different than being a normal Hailsham student. Miss Lucy tells the students near the end of their time at Hailsham, &quot;your lives are set out for you&quot; (81). We, on the other hand, have room for dreams and ambitions.<br \/>\nSo in some ways, the students long for normal lives, &quot;we were just talking about what it would feel like if we became actors&quot; (80). But because of their upbringing in Hailsham, the students also have a semi-easy time accepting their fate as donors and even wanting to be like their other classmates.","dateCreated":"1345656806","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"GARRETTM20","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/GARRETTM20","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55900159","body":"There is a lower quality of at Hailsham as apposed to the &quot;normal world&quot;. The pencil case incident in chapter 5 is evidence of this. The case itself does not sound especially remarkable, but as Kathy says, \u201ca gorgeous item like that wouldn\u2019t have gone unnoticed\u201d (56). This reveals the low quality of the items in the Sales; suggesting that they are cast-offs or charitable donations from \u201cnormal\u201d.  It is clear that this alternate England suffers from all kinds of material shortages.","dateCreated":"1345657185","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HUNTERS2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HUNTERS2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55900161","body":"There is a lower quality of at Hailsham as apposed to the &quot;normal world&quot;. The pencil case incident in chapter 5 is evidence of this. The case itself does not sound especially remarkable, but as Kathy says, \u201ca gorgeous item like that wouldn\u2019t have gone unnoticed\u201d (56). This reveals the low quality of the items in the Sales; suggesting that they are cast-offs or charitable donations from \u201cnormal\u201d.  It is clear that this alternate England suffers from all kinds of material shortages.","dateCreated":"1345657187","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HUNTERS2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HUNTERS2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55901435","body":"Although they accept their fates I still think they want more. That's why Kathy and Tommy were upset when they found out they could not have a deferral. Even though they knew the path that was set out for them they still had some hope to find some happiness in life and to have a purpose outside giving donations. I don't think they were fully okay with being different.","dateCreated":"1345661775","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KIMBERLYG8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KIMBERLYG8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55906439","body":"I agree with Shane's point. Throughout the novel the clones are trying to find n a way to be more normal even though they have no future. When at the cottages, Cathy realized that the couples at the cottage tried to behave like normal couples in the real world. They way they learned to be &quot;normal&quot; was by copying mannerisms they saw on the television, &quot;I began to notice all kinds of other things the veteran couples had taken from TV programs ; the way they gestured to each other, sat on sofas, even the way they argued and stormed out of rooms&quot;(127). They thought this was how &quot;normal&quot; people acted in the real world.","dateCreated":"1345681378","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HANNAHU95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HANNAHU95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55907079","body":"I like the quote when Miss Emily begins to explain everything at the end of the novel when Tommy asks about why they took away their artwork and she says &quot;we took away your art because we thought it would reveal your souls. Or to put it more finely, we did it to prove you had souls at all&quot; (260). One of the strongest quotes in the novel, it sympolizes ruined creativity of these somewhat ignorant clones that in a way mirror how throughtout human existance, suppressed societies have had their ideas altered and covered up which may have helped human existance.","dateCreated":"1345682882","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"AUSTINW3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/AUSTINW3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55908303","body":"I liked when people from the outside would bring in things to the Hailsham students in the van and many of them were very excited to be getting things they had no clue what they were. They would pretend they knew exactly what it was, i think this is the students trying to be &quot;normal&quot;. I like this quote because it shows how the students all stayed together even though they were distant, they shared the same feelings about the rest of the world, and all just wanted to feel normal. \u201cA part of us stayed like that: fearful of the world around us, and-no matter how much we despised ourselves for it-unable quite to let each other go.\u201d","dateCreated":"1345686688","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TAYLORU","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TAYLORU","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55909365","body":"I'm kind of going to talk about a different view of normal than the other people in this discussion tab. It is obvious that the Hailsham students know that they are not &quot;normal&quot; or what they think normal is, but I feel like they aren't any different from us humans, rather than...they cannot become pregnant. They have feelings, they think the same way, but the students are obviously treated differently by the guardians because the guardians KNOW that they are not &quot;normal&quot; people. I feel like a good example of them being normal is early on in the book when Ruth and Kathy are in their beds with the other girls having those deep conversations just before they drift off. &quot;We often had our most intimate conversations lying in the dark just before we fell asleep. You could talk about things there you wouldn't dream of talking about any other place,&quot; (15). This is a perfect example of an extremely &quot;normal&quot; human thing to do. Everyone does this at some point in their young adult life, mostly with their closest friends. Another thing is when they move to the cottages and her bonds with Tommy and Ruth sort of disappear.  This part reminded me how after high school and college, most kids will lose those great relationships they thought they would always have. They wanted them to last, because its the natural thing to think...but they know deep down, that they were not meant to last.","dateCreated":"1345689847","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JESSICAL8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JESSICAL8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55913059","body":"I think that most people take for granted the subtle luxeries in life such as doing certain things that are normal to others and being perceived by others as regular people.  \u201cDidn\u2019t we all dream from time to time about one guardian or other bending the rules and doing something special for us? A spontaneous hug, a secret letter, a gift?\u201d(60).  I wonder if Kathy wanted to be treated as more special than the rest which could then result in a feeling of normalcy.","dateCreated":"1345715386","smartDate":"Aug 23, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JOEH8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JOEH8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1304429459\/JOEH8-lg.jpg"}}],"more":2}]},{"id":"60011427","dateCreated":"1345516691","smartDate":"Aug 20, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JACOBK7","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JACOBK7","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1331503750\/JACOBK7-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/60011427"},"dateDigested":1532653216,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"LOOK","description":"Okay, I noticed something strange on page 149 that I was hoping someone could explain. For some context, this occurs inside the small cafe in which Chrissie and Rodney talk to Ruth, Kathy, and Tommy about deferrals. Before they start talking, Kathy mentions that &quot;there was one cardboard notice pinned over the counter that had been done in coloured felt-tips, and at the top of it was the word 'look' with a staring eye drawn inside each 'o.' I see the same thing so often these days I don't even register it, but back then I hadn't seen it before.&quot; Just wondering if anyone understands what's going on here.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55883579","body":"Maybe it's just a cute little ploy that advertisers tend to do a lot to attract attention. But assuming it isn't, maybe it signifies that the clones are being watched no matter what they do. Like how the larger government organization or even Hailsham have ways of finding out what you're doing. This sort of reminds me of the large eyes on that billboard in The Great Gatsby that symbolize that God is always watching. <br \/>\n<br \/>\nAlso, if that is an exact quote, the wording seems somewhat vague and confusing in the second part. This further adds to the confusion in the situation.","dateCreated":"1345589829","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ZACHD3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ZACHD3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55885081","body":"I agree with Zach in the fact that it is probably just a ploy to attract attention.  It obviously worked (at least that time), as it attracted the attention of both Kathy and Ruth.  I feel like it is maybe supposed to symbolize how the children from Hailsham are cut off from the rest of the world.  This is because the girls are amazed by a sign that is commonly seen in the outside world.  Once Kathy leaves the cottages, she is exposed to everything that she was previously oblivious to, and something like the &quot;LOOK&quot; sign just becomes common.","dateCreated":"1345596481","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ANDREWB18","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ANDREWB18","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]},{"id":"60004081","dateCreated":"1345254584","smartDate":"Aug 17, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CALYSSAB","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CALYSSAB","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/60004081"},"dateDigested":1532653216,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Literary Connection","description":"When I first read the word Hailsham, I pronounced it Halisham, which reminded me of a certain Miss Havisham from Great Expectations. Hailsham and Havisham are sort of opposite ideas: Hailsham is about moving forward and a new way of thinking, while Miss Havisham and her entire house are stuck in one moment in the past. This being said, it's certainly interesting that Miss Havisham died an abrupt, fiery death, as opposed to Hailsham's slow decomposition. It's just an interesting thing to think about.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55909269","body":"Never let me go touched on many of the same moral issues that the book House of the Scorpion did.  Both were told form the point of view of a clone and talked about how differently they are treated from regular human beings.  Both talked about how the normal people's feeling for disgust affected them.  However in both books, there are people fighting for the cloning to stop.  An example of this is Madame.  She is disgusted that people would want to treat clones horribly. When she sees Kathy dancing she begins to cry for all that Kathy will never get to experience: &quot;she just went on standing there, sobbing and sobbing.&quot; Madame weeps for the clones and how they don't get to be treated like normal people.  Just like in House of the Scorpion, there are some people fighting for the rights of clones and clones that get treated better than the more misfortunate clones.","dateCreated":"1345689652","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KAYLAH95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KAYLAH95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55909283","body":"Oops, I forgot to put the page number for my quote.  My quote was from page 72.","dateCreated":"1345689710","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KAYLAH95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KAYLAH95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]},{"id":"55818103","dateCreated":"1345143512","smartDate":"Aug 16, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"WENDYP8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/WENDYP8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55818103"},"dateDigested":1532653217,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"The Woods","description":"The woods outside of Hailsham were the setting of many scary stories that the students told each other.&quot;There were all kinds of horrible stories about the woods&quot;(pg 50). Why were the woods so frightening to the students? I believe it's because the woods represented an escape from their fate. All the students had to do is sneak out and run off to the woods, and they'd be free. But for a person who has been told exactly how their life is going to turn out, the concept of being able to make your own decisions is understandably intimidating. It's probably comforting to the students to know what will happen after they leave Hailsham and eventually how they're going to die instead of having the twists and turns of their life being a mystery. They didn't know what could happen outside of Hailsham, and outside the life that had been planned out for them, so instead of taking a chance on freedom, they chose the saftey and comfort of living out their lives the way it had been designed by humans.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55823409","body":"Also does anyone think that the stories may have had some truth in them? &quot;Once, not so long before we all got to Hailsham, a boy had had a big row with his friends and run off beyond the Hailsham boundaries&quot;(pg 50). I'd like to think that if the clones actually were human like, that they would've had some form of free will. I mean, I don't believe in souls and all that stuff, but if Madame and Miss Emily's beliefs were correct, I would think at least a few clones would try and escape into the woods. I just can't believe that not one clone would even think to try to evade their fate. It was really frustrating to me when later in the novel, Kathy is a carer and she drives to different hospitals. She could easily drive to some remote part of the country and live out the rest of her life without having to watch her friends die off one by one while waiting for her own death. Why doesn't she?","dateCreated":"1345165143","smartDate":"Aug 16, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"WENDYP8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/WENDYP8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55823561","body":"i agree, but i feel like they were afraid of that freedom because they became so dependent on what others had plan for them, the gaurdians told the students &quot;you're special. so keeping yourselves well, keeping yourselves very healthy inside, that's much more important for each of you than it is for you than it is for me.&quot; (69) it was like the wood were a place that harms them kinda like the real world and the woods connecting them to it would have harmed them and ruined the path that was created for them already.","dateCreated":"1345165826","smartDate":"Aug 16, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"SAMMANTHAM","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/SAMMANTHAM","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882993","body":"I agree with SAMMANTHAM about being afraid of freedom because they were so dependent on others, the guardians mostly. Once they moved on to the cottages none of the students ever wanted to leave the house and were not sure what to do and Kathy explains, &quot;we'd never been beyond the grounds of Hailsham&quot;(118). Leaving what was so familiar to them scared the students so they prefered to just go along with their planned lives. The woods may have been part of Hailsham but it was unfamiliar and off limits so the students refused to go near them. The only world they knew was already planned and it seemed perfectly alright to go along with.","dateCreated":"1345586789","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KARMINF","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KARMINF","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55883507","body":"Wendy, in response to your last question(s) in your second post, what would she do besides just run away? She already knows what her purpose in life is and she can't really change it. She can't go off and start a family because she can't have kids. She would basically live alone with nothing to do ever. The guilt would also probably eat her up inside knowing that she escaped her death effectively and she could have done the same with tommy and the others. <br \/>\n<br \/>\nOr maybe it's just that since the technology in this book is advanced enough to create clones, they have tracking technologies placed in them to prevent things like this from happening.","dateCreated":"1345589382","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ZACHD3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ZACHD3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55885243","body":"I feel like the clones do not run away because they know that it is their destiny to be organ donors.  Zach made a good point when he said that the guilt would probably eat them up.  Sure the clones could live, but they would have to live knowing that they were supposed to save several people's lives, and now those people may die just because the clones ran away.  Another thing is that if the clones do run away, they have nothing to do.  If they cannot start a family, then they will just be miserable for the rest of their lives.","dateCreated":"1345597155","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ANDREWB18","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ANDREWB18","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55889263","body":"While I think Andrew is correct, I also believe that the clones, at least those that were raised in Hailsham, were very meticulously brought up not to do such things. Often, even talking about the matter resulted in not just the teachers being angry, but also the students; they simply did not speak or think about the things of the future. This type of thinking was very carefully ingrained into the students' minds until it was the way they actually thought. So, in truth, I think the option of escape wasn't even there to begin with.","dateCreated":"1345610739","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"GAGEW2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/GAGEW2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55897227","body":"Where would the fulfillment be in living by yourself in the countryside. She would have no company, no purpose. At least in their current path the clones know that they are helping people and serving a purpose in the world. There wouldn't even be that satisfaction with a life in isolation.","dateCreated":"1345653849","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ALEXANDERF1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ALEXANDERF1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55899883","body":"I agree with Andrew.  I think that guilt plays a heavy role on why the clones don't runaway.  I think that the clones feel good that the could potentially save several lives with their donations.  Also  I agree with Gage that the clones are taught to not think or speak about their futures.","dateCreated":"1345656386","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HUNTERS2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HUNTERS2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55902073","body":"They dont run away I think because they dont know where they would even go, or do how even really how to live on their own and thats why the girl tried getting back in over and over except just walking away to the nearest town.","dateCreated":"1345664471","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CHRISTINAS19","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CHRISTINAS19","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]},{"id":"55770670","dateCreated":"1344906463","smartDate":"Aug 13, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CHARLOTTES29","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CHARLOTTES29","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317169643\/CHARLOTTES29-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55770670"},"dateDigested":1532653217,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Ruth...","description":"Okay, I have read this book entirely and i loved it. I just really could not get passed how much i disliked Ruth. I mean she does apologize before she dies and everything and tried to set things right, &quot;'I Kept you and Tommy apart'...'That was the worst thing I did&quot; but still the whole first to parts of the book she is awful. I guess in a way it makes the entire book more relate-able. It shows us that these clones specially made for donations are in fact feelings with personalities. I think especially for a teenage girl this makes the reader much more connected with Kathy because we all have that one person who we love as a friend but still sort of hate. I can see how Ruth's horrid personality was necessary for this purpose in the novel but none the less she still made me angry and i wished i could have slapped her. ( Sorry for the ranting post, I needed to vent)","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55823641","body":"Ruth is just that annoying person who always as her way like i wanted to slap her too. she was always trying to one up everyone in the book but as charlotte said it is more relate-able  to the readers. it was like you had nice sweet kathy and dopey tommy and then ruth was the wicked witch who was always fighting to be the most popular.","dateCreated":"1345166207","smartDate":"Aug 16, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"SAMMANTHAM","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/SAMMANTHAM","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55853241","body":"Something that's easily forgotten about Ruth is that Kathy actually likes her and looks up to her. Kathy's earliest memory of Ruth is when Ruth is angry at two other kids in the sandbox, and Kathy tries to stay out of it to avoid getting on Ruth's bad side. Ruth has a huge impact on Kathy: &quot;more and more these days, I'll be driving past fields on a long afternoon, or maybe drinking my coffee in front of a huge window in a motorway service station, and I'll catch myself thinking about her again&quot; (45). Maybe it's because Ruth is so imperfect that she makes such a big impact.","dateCreated":"1345424413","smartDate":"Aug 19, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CALYSSAB","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CALYSSAB","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55871543","body":"Something I never stopped being amazed at was Kathy's ability to read Ruth. It is obvious that Ruth ruthlessly (no pun intended) plays mind games with everyone she comes into contact with. She views conversations as competitions and she won't stop at anything -- lying, insulting a friend, making incredibly vague accusations -- to win them.  What impressed me was that Kathy understands all this and still accepts Ruth and plays along with her little games and trials, knowing exactly what she had done &quot;wrong&quot; or how she had broken the unspoken rules even if it is something entirely miniscule or trivial.<br \/>\nCome to think of it, this theme recurs extremely often in this novel; the theme of unspoken rules, untold codes, things that will happen but no one has ever been taught...","dateCreated":"1345518706","smartDate":"Aug 20, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JACOBK7","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JACOBK7","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1331503750\/JACOBK7-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882383","body":"I agree with Calyssa's statement that Ruth makes such a big impact on Kathy maybe because of all her imperfections and flaws. I also agree with what Charlotte said about how the characters' personalities make the reader feel more connected to them. One interaction between Ruth and Kathy stood out to me, when Kathy became Ruth's carer. &quot;The look was gone the next instant and we just carried on as usual, but that incident gave us both a jolt. It made me realize Ruth didn't trust me, and for all I know, maybe she herself hadn't fully realized it until that moment&quot; (215). I'm not sure why this stood out to me, but I think it's because I really felt for Ruth in that moment, she was a donor that didn't even trust her childhood best friend and carer.","dateCreated":"1345583940","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ALLIS22","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ALLIS22","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55888197","body":"I agree with JACOBK7, Kathy had an undeniable ability to read Ruth in any and every situation. I suppose it's because they grew up together and Kathy became able to tell what was going on in Ruth's head, but she knew what was going on perfectly every time. Tommy, on the other hand, was a tad slow and could not read her emotions so well, or anyone's for that matter.","dateCreated":"1345605769","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"SHANET14","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/SHANET14","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55889469","body":"I agree with Jacob. The way Ruth endlessly manipulates conversation never ceased to amaze me, and really in truth irritate me. Any time a section with Ruth came along I had a strong inclination to skip it.  If Ishiguro's goal was to cause extreme distaste towards Ruth, he did a fine job. However, I strongly suspect it was not Ruth's less than pleasant personality, but rather Kathy's incredible patience. This is easily recognizable in the first instance of Ruth attempting to make an impression on people. When Ruth deceived the girls around her by attempting to convince them that Miss Geraldine had bestowed her favor on Ruth and Kathy found out about it, Kathy still helped her cover it up saying, &quot;We can't say where it came from...There are some very good reasons why we can't tell you where it came from&quot; (63). That takes an incredible amount of patience, if you ask me, especially considering the amount of time Kathy spent doing things like this.","dateCreated":"1345611701","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"GAGEW2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/GAGEW2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55897065","body":"Something that always amazed me about literature is the way the author can manipulate your feelings towards a character so you have either agreeing or conflicting views of that person than say the main character, in this case Kathy. It's not hard to believe that Kathy always looked up to Ruth and put up with all of her annoying behavior because I think Kathy was amazed with herself that she could hold onto her as a friend for that long. She explains at the beginning how Ruth was always the leader of their little group and always said the funniest things. So Kathy had respect for her that carried through their friendship. <br \/>\n<br \/>\nTheir relationship is symbiotic in a way. Sort of a yin-yang type thing. Ruth is the crazy, out of control girl and Kathy is the level headed, rational one that keeps Ruth in check. And although Kathy only got angry with Ruth a number of times, the reader hates her throughout the entier book because one: she was a horrible friend, and two: Kathy put up with her. I agree with Gage and Jacob that it was Kathy's ability to read Ruth so well that really kept their friendship alive. Had Kathy not been able to read her so well, she would not have been able to stay friends with her all those years.","dateCreated":"1345653355","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MEGANY2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MEGANY2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55901993","body":"I agree with Megan, I like the Yin-Yang description. Ruth and Kathy are a balancing act for each other. Also I do not think the Ruth is the best person because of how cold hearted she is, even when she is first introduced and the girls are watching tommy get picked on. Ruth doesn\u2019t care and blames it all on tommy, \u201cIt\u2019s his own fault. If he learnt to keep his cool they would leave him alone. \u201c(16) She never even thinks that Tommy could use a friend to help him fit in more, or feel the relationships that Ruth has with her friends. . Kathy accepts Tommy more than anyone else and it is portrayed that she is caring and kind hearted, which is consistent through most of the novel.","dateCreated":"1345664129","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TAYLORH34","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TAYLORH34","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317601319\/TAYLORH34-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55905351","body":"Ruth almost seems like a bipolar antagonist. She is constantly switching sides from best friends is with KAthy to alomst emenies. One day she is trying to help find Kathy's tape and the next she is trying to keep Kathy and Tommy apart, where it is clear that they belong together.","dateCreated":"1345677749","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ERINJ2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ERINJ2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55905883","body":"I found the way Ruth kept Tommy and Kathy apart to be very selfish.  I felt like the only reason that she ever told both of them that she was at first trying to keep them apart was for her own sake because she was closer to death and wanted to make things all better.  I feel like Ruth just told them for her own selfish reasons.  Ruth knew all along that Kathy and Tommy were perfect for each other but she still stood in the way of her own friends happiness.  Kathy would do anything to please Ruth and make sure she was happy but Ruth would not do the same for Kathy.  Ruth admits , &quot;I kept you and Tommy apart&quot; (232). This just shows how selfish Ruth was.","dateCreated":"1345679568","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MORGANL23","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MORGANL23","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55909785","body":"While I agree Ruth, for the most of the book, is one of those characters that readers love to hate, she does ultimately redeem herself by attempting to get Kathy and Tommy together to get them the chance at a normal life, giving up on her own selfish desires of getting away and helping someone else. Morgan I agree that Ruth is selfish for a majority of the novel, but I believe her reprieve is sufficient when she tells Kathy to go after Tommy.","dateCreated":"1345691235","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"LUKEO1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/LUKEO1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55910215","body":"While I was reading the novel, I disliked Ruth, like most people in this thread. It frustrated me to no end that Kathy stayed good friends with Ruth despite Ruth manipulative and selfish tendancies. However, while reflecting on their relationship, I understand why Kathy never left Ruth for less selfish friends. I've had a few friends who were negative influences or had rude attitudes. Even though I would've been able to recognize these unfavorable traits in these friends, I still remained friends with them for quite a while. I think this is mainly because, with friends, you are able to see past negative traits to the good person that they really are. Ruth may have done some awful things to her friends, but positive traits are there, too. Like when Kathy lost her favorite tape and how Ruth &quot;realised, then and there, exactly what losing the tape meant to [Kathy], and at the same time, how important it was for [Kathy] there was no fuss&quot; (75). Ruth and Kathy really do understand each other really well and care for each other a lot.","dateCreated":"1345692818","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KELSEYM6","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KELSEYM6","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317175748\/KELSEYM6-lg.jpg"}}],"more":3}]},{"id":"55751732","dateCreated":"1344799917","smartDate":"Aug 12, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MASONJ4","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MASONJ4","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55751732"},"dateDigested":1532653219,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Names","description":"I found it interesting that throughout the entire novel, not one character has a last name. The opening line of the book is, &quot;My name is Kathy H.&quot; and at no point later on does the reader find out what the main character's last name is (1). Also, when when Tommy and Kathy go to see madame to find out about the deferral Kathy introduces themselves by saying, &quot;I'm Kathy H., maybe you remember. And this is Tommy D.&quot; (248). It just seems odd to me that after so many years she would use their last names to help madame remember them. is there any significance behind Ishiguro not giving the characters last names?","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55794132","body":"I think the part about the names that really gets me is that they have a first initial to their last names but that is it. It could have been not a big deal at all if they had just gone about through the story with nothing but first names. That would not be seen as too irregular. I think that they have this initial sort of in a way shows how they are partial human. If you think about it last names hold a lot of value. For instance the last name Kennedy is connected with great leaders and people. Any french name with a De front generally is a sign of royalty. I think that the characters only having one letter to their last name shows that they are striving to become people but aren't quite there. I also think its interesting that it is only the Hailsham students that they discuss as having these last initials. I think it is because at hailsham they were seeing if the children had souls like regular children so the initial represents that they are sort of humans, That the people are trying to decided whether or not to recognize them as people.","dateCreated":"1345043817","smartDate":"Aug 15, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CHARLOTTES29","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CHARLOTTES29","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317169643\/CHARLOTTES29-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55795800","body":"I think part of the reason the children had that initial has to do with what Miss Emily says at the end of the novel.  She says that her mission was to make the children's lives as normal as possible so they didn't suspect they were different from the rest of the world.  Also when all of the characters were grown they never had any real contact with non-clones so the explanation for their last initials was never needed.  I also agree with CHARLOTTES29 that this single initial shows the children striving for something they aren't.  In many ways the children were striving to be like normal people but as the story progressed each one of them realized all they were meant to be was carers and donors.","dateCreated":"1345053427","smartDate":"Aug 15, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MARGARETG23","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MARGARETG23","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55852725","body":"I agree with CHARLOTTES29's opinion about the presence of a single initial sort of adding to the less-than-human stereotype, but why didn't Ishiguro include any full last names? It was always &quot;Miss ___&quot; or Madame or Keffers (even if this was a last name, no first name was given, so again, each person only has a single name). Maybe the reason no characters had a full first and last name throughout the entire novel is to demonstrate that the clones really aren't that different from anybody else. On a somewhat related note, Madame's name is Marie-Claude, giving her the longest name in the book and two different titles. Could this be significant?","dateCreated":"1345421560","smartDate":"Aug 19, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CALYSSAB","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CALYSSAB","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55862113","body":"I agree with MARGARETG23 in that the last initial was there so that the kids would feel normal and not suspect they were different. It is almost like teasing them, they are given just enough to feel a little bit normal but not enough to actually be and be treated like &quot;normal humans&quot;. I think also that the fact that everyone in the novel only has one name shows how unimportant and temporary they are. As though it is almost not worth giving them a longer name cause it won't matter anyway.","dateCreated":"1345473265","smartDate":"Aug 20, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TYLERV1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TYLERV1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55867991","body":"I sort of agree with CHARLOTTES29, but I think the initial of their last name is there to make it more obvious to readers that none of them have a mentioned full last name. If the book would have introduced each character as &quot;Kathy,&quot; and &quot;Tom,&quot; instead of how they were actually mentioned (Kathy H, Tommy D), then I would have been much less likely to notice that they don't have last names. But with the initial, it makes it easier to see that something is missing. They missing full names definitely add a more mysterious aspect to all of the characters. It emphesizes throughout the novel that we really don't know all too much about the characters. And as for CALYSSAB's question, I don't think her name is relevant. I think it is just a name like mary-jo or something of the sort.","dateCreated":"1345504647","smartDate":"Aug 20, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JAMESB00","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JAMESB00","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1288998772\/JAMESB00-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882577","body":"I really agree with JENNIM4's point, that the childrens' lack of a last name shows the impermanence of their lives. I never actually really thought about the significance of just an intial for their last names. Now putting it all together, the clones could never have kids, making a last name unnecessary, I think the students were just trying to be as human and normal as possible.","dateCreated":"1345584893","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ALLIS22","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ALLIS22","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882817","body":"I agree with Charlotte. I think that the reason they only have a last intial as opposed to a full last name is to make a point that they are not really human. Just referring to a characters first name in a book is no big deal or giving them a first and last name is normal but I think that the fact that Ishiguro gave the studnets a first name and a last intial is for a reason. I think the reason is that he is trying to show how insignificant thier lives really are. They are alive strictly to be donors. They don't even have a last name for them to be remembered by once thier gone.","dateCreated":"1345586152","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MADISONL18","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MADISONL18","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55883445","body":"This is an amazing point, i didn't even realize this fact while reading the novel. I agree with what other people have posted, how they put the letter there so you would notice it. I think they did that so you could see that all the students had something missing in their lives. It distinguishes therm from everybody else in the world. I think it also shows how they are not themselves an individual. They have no last name because they are not their own person they are a donor and nothing more.","dateCreated":"1345588953","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"NICHOLASW8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/NICHOLASW8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55902545","body":"I agree with most of what everyone is saying but I think the lack of a last name is to avoid personal and emotional connections. People from the outside world don\u2019t want to be attached to a clone, so to separate them and make them less important Ishiguro leaves the last name off and only gives them a last initial. Since the clones are made to be donors and their life expectancy is not very long it saves the people from the outside world from feeling more and more emotional pain.","dateCreated":"1345665315","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TAYLORH34","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TAYLORH34","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317601319\/TAYLORH34-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55905397","body":"I think it helps the clones detach themselves from the rest of soiecty so they know that they aren't typical humans that they are clones of others out there.","dateCreated":"1345677893","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ERINJ2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ERINJ2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55906681","body":"Margaret answers this thread most accurately. The best explanation for this is what Miss Emily says toward the end of the novel. They try their best to maintain thier lives an normal as possible and were very successful because of the fact that Kathy never really questioned anything.","dateCreated":"1345681992","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"AUSTINW3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/AUSTINW3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55907015","body":"I agree with what Taylor said about avoiding personal and emotion connections, by not giving the children full names it makes them more of an object other than a person. Also I feel it eases the guilt that Miss Lucy feels towards the whole idea of Hailsham by not giving the students full names. I think of it more as &quot;pet names&quot; or &quot;nick-names&quot; used to label the children.","dateCreated":"1345682710","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CAROLINEC13","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CAROLINEC13","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":3}]},{"id":"55719212","dateCreated":"1344524764","smartDate":"Aug 9, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"LAURAF9","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/LAURAF9","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55719212"},"dateDigested":1532653220,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Our Fate","description":"The conclusion of this book moved me deeply, and left me thinking for days.  Thinking about life, love, and fate.  <br \/>\n<br \/>\nIn one of their final conversations, Tommy says, &quot;I keep thinking about this river somewhere, with the water moving really fast.  And these two people in the water, trying to hold onto each other, holding on as hard as they can, but in the end it's just too much.  The current's too strong.  They've got to let go, drift apart.  That's how I think it is with us.  It's a shame, Kath, because we've loved eachother all our lives.  But in the end, we can't stay together forever&quot; (Ishiguro 283).  <br \/>\n<br \/>\nKathy and Tommy thought that their love could &quot;conquer all&quot;, and that their love would save them.  As much as they loved eachother, their destiny was ultimately in charge of their lives.  This is a very bleak, but accurate picture of our own lives.  We have no control, no matter how we might try to change our fate.  It's all in the hands of destiny.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55846097","body":"Of course the students of Hailsham, once they figured out that they are only to be organ donors, are not going to be happy with their lives. Obviously they are going to try to change their destiny, but they are not allowed to, because fate is fate: \u201cYour life must now run the course that's been set for it&quot; (113). Although they do not like what their lives will become, they must accept it, because it is what they were born to do. Literally.","dateCreated":"1345351956","smartDate":"Aug 18, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KENTONA","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KENTONA","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1345307249\/KENTONA-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55878632","body":"I absolutely love this quote and I agree Laura, it had me thinking for days! <br \/>\nI think that the river with the water moving fast is their lives together, with all of the struggles and hardships accounted for.  The people in the water holding onto each other are Kathy and Tommy, holding on through all of their relationships with different people (even though they should have been together from the very beginning!!), arguments, and problems that they passed through.  Throughout everything, Tommy and Kathy really never let go of each other- of their friendship, their love.  The end, that he mentions, is when they officially hear with their own ears that there is no pardon from donating for couples in love.  That was so difficult for me to read, and I can't imagine what it would be like for them.  That would probably be one of the toughest reactions ever to face, and at that point, they seemed to realize that they had to drift apart, because Tommy was going to die.  He even says &quot;we've loved each other all our lives,&quot; yet they can't stay together (283).  This makes me so sad!! They both know that they have always loved each other, yet they never let it work because their love almost went unsaid.  They loved each other so much that they knew it without saying it.  It's so sad that they seem to be destined for one another, but because of the future that it already planned for them, totally out of their reach and control, there is nothing that they can do about it.","dateCreated":"1345564265","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KATHERINEA2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KATHERINEA2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1289436703\/KATHERINEA2-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55879522","body":"I believe the students at Hailsham figured out their fate as they got older. Also I think they thought they thought could change it which in turn gave them hope for a better life. They all heard the rumor that if you're truly in love you would be allowed to live together for a little while in peace. This all sounded too good to be true and of course it was. When Miss Emily told them everything they believed in they were crushed, &quot;All they feel now is disappointment&quot; (265). Then Kathy and Tommy leave and began to drive back home. I believe when all hope is lost and you know you're definite fate that you revert back to a child-like state. You feel like a child because you know there is nothing you can do to change it. Kathy pulls over because Tommy says he needs to get some air. She then follows him and sees him &quot;raging, shouting, flinging his fists and kicking out&quot; (274). This is exactly what Tommy did as a kid, he is so enraged because he knows there is nothing he can do to save him and Kathy.","dateCreated":"1345569283","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"NICHOLASW8","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/NICHOLASW8","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882765","body":"Interesting. I feel like almost every piece of literature has some sort of fate vs. free will conflict. This applies to some movies too. Whichever one the story favors, fate or free wil, tells alot about the message the author wants to get out, but sometimes it's hard to distinguish.<br \/>\nIn the case of Never Let Me Go, it's really obvious that fate is the dominant force in life. Tommy, Ruth, Kathy, and the other clones really have no chance of changing their destinies as donors, they can only delay them as carers. Like many on this topic have been saying, Kathy and Tommy find out about their fate and are forced to accept this.<br \/>\nIshiguro creates a sense of helplessness through the lives and struggles of his central characters that he intends his readers to reflect on in context with the events of their own lives.<br \/>\nI think what Ishiguro wants us to take away from this novel is that we are not in control of our lives in anyway, but we must find comfort in our actions, our friends, and our memories.","dateCreated":"1345585906","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"GARRETTM20","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/GARRETTM20","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55888151","body":"I find it interesting that once the Hailsham kids found out that they were destined to be donors and were willing to just accept their fate. on pages 81-82 when Miss Lucy tells the kids that they are all destined to be donors, the kids just accept it. Kathy tells us that if the conversation about what Miss Lucy had said ever came up, people would say, &quot;Well so what? We already knew that.&quot; My point is, why were the kids so willing to give in to their so called &quot;destiny?&quot; Couldn't they have fled the country in a hope that they could change their lives? Just a thought.","dateCreated":"1345605436","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"SHANET14","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/SHANET14","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55895667","body":"I think they took it so well because on some level they all already knew. This is reflected when Kathy says to Tommy: &quot;We couldn't understand how you could ever get like that. And IU was just having this idea, just a thought really. I was thinking maybe the reason you used to get like that was because at some level you always knew.&quot; (pg 275) That's why whenever the subject was brought up it was approached with such caution on both sides, because neither wanted to talk about it because it was hopeless. The thought that they could have fled the country is interesting though. I think this never came to them because they never thought of the world as the world. They thought of the world as England. Thinking back I don't think any place outside of England was even ever mentioned to them. In addition, they never had the opportunity. Once they were able to drive and move around, they were kept constantly busy as carers or constantly weak as donors.","dateCreated":"1345647686","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JAMESK48","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JAMESK48","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55897255","body":"I agree with James, I believe the kids took the news of their fate so well because they already knew, or had a good idea about what was going to happen. It would be hard to accept, especially for a child, that they are only living so they will be donors and then their life will end. That's why it makes sense to me that the reason they are so accepting of this is because even if they did not know 100% what would happen, they had somewhat of an idea.","dateCreated":"1345653922","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HAYLIEC1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HAYLIEC1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55901317","body":"I don't think they just took the news that they were going to be donors well, i think they just didn't fully understand the extent of what was going to happen to them in the future. It's like how we are now, just high school students, one day we'll have jobs, a house, and a family but right now we really don't think about it. I think they just assumed that was the norm of where they were living just like we do, so why worry about it. This also plays a part with the whole fate concept, we think it's happening to everyone around us so why should we be any different?","dateCreated":"1345661345","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MITCHC23","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MITCHC23","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55902475","body":"I agree with Mitch, I think the kids don\u2019t fully grasp the concept of being donors.  I understand that they might have already known that they had a  \u201cpredetermined\u201d  destiny but that doesn\u2019t mean they couldn\u2019t of changed it somehow.  To the clones the life they had at Hailsham was the norm, but to the outside world it was a controlled life that was there to improve the lives of others.","dateCreated":"1345665008","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"TAYLORH34","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/TAYLORH34","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1317601319\/TAYLORH34-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55904357","body":"I believe later in their lives they understand how powerful their fate affected their lives. Kathy states, &quot;But the fact was, I suppose there were powerful tides tugging us apart by then, and it only needed something like that to finish the task. If we'd understood that back then-who knows?-maybe we'd have kept a tighter hold of one another.&quot; (197) After the fact they realized the impact the past had on the present. Also this quote brings up an important point, does the realization of how momentous your actions are on your fate make that fate inevitable?","dateCreated":"1345673565","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"PATRICKMc1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/PATRICKMc1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55905963","body":"I believe from the beginning all the clones were doomed and had to face their fate.  Even when Tommy and Kathy go to see Madame to see if they can have a few more years together and change their fate in a way they fail.  Madame goes on to say how the whole defferal thing was always a rumor and nothing more and they had no control over their own fate.  Madame even said to both of them, &quot;you poor creatures&quot; (272).  ASfter hearing Madame say this Tommy and Kathy realize finally that they don't have any control over their own fate.","dateCreated":"1345679889","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MORGANL23","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MORGANL23","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55907725","body":"There is a part of me that believes that the &quot;clones&quot; were doomed to face their fate only because they chose to accept it like it is a normal routine. Also I think social ignorance plays a big role in their fate. All of the &quot;clones&quot; are kept in a place where their entire world is barely a mile wide for a long period of their life. The ignorance they possess holds the door open for social injustice and their &quot;fate&quot; chosen for them.","dateCreated":"1345684635","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CAROLINEC13","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CAROLINEC13","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":6}]},{"id":"55592914","dateCreated":"1343704494","smartDate":"Jul 30, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CASSIDYB.95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CASSIDYB.95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1303698235\/CASSIDYB.95-lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55592914"},"dateDigested":1532653221,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Ignorance","description":"A common theme I've noticed in Never Let Me Go is intentional ignorance. In chapter six, Kathy talks about the taboo subject of cigarettes. Miss Lucy admits to the children that she's smoked before and explains that while cigarettes are harmful, they're much harmful for the children that live at Hailsham than for her. Kathy talks about the children's conversation afterwards on page 69 &quot;Afterwards, when we discussed it, some of us were sure she was dying for someone to ask: 'Why? Why is it so much worse for us?' But no one did...All it would have taken was just one more question about smoking....So why had we stayed silent that day?&quot; Kathy and the other clones know that there are things that they aren't being told, but the fear of knowing is greater than the need to know.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55727502","body":"I would respectfully disagree with the previous two posts. First, saying that \u201cIt\u2019s better to be ignorant for a few years, and be happy, then to be completely informed and miserable\u201d is subjective to each person. Happiness is a choice. I truly believe if Hailsham students were told: \u201cYou are merely tools so that other people could live.\u201d they would eventually accept this and go on to live happy lives and play the cards they are dealt. Instead, when they find out the true meaning of their lives, it hits them like a freight train. They\u2019ve been allowed to believe that if they work hard, fall in love, they have a chance. Lying to them is wrong. Secondly, the opinion that \u201cKeeping the students ignorant is the only way the guardians can prepare them for their disappointing future.\u201d would be misguided, as to prepare them best is to let them accept their future, live the best life they can, and accept donation and death. Doing what Hailsham did actually unprepares them for their future (freight train factor).","dateCreated":"1344573234","smartDate":"Aug 9, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"BENJAMIND.42","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/BENJAMIND.42","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55751598","body":"I don't necessarily think Miss Lucy's interjection is an example of ignorance. She knows very well why the children can't smoke. They only reason why she adds her two cents is because she wants the children to respond, hoping they would be inclined to know who they really are. <br \/>\n<br \/>\nI feel like ignorance isn't the right word to insert into the novel. It's more innocence than it is ignorance. The students don't know right off the bat why they are really at Hailsham, they just know they are special and can't have babies: &quot;that was all part of how we came to be 'told and not told'&quot; (84). It is their innocence that drives them to believe crazy things and become so curious. They were, after all, just children. They behaved like a child would at Miss Lucy's outburst, for example. <br \/>\n<br \/>\nI don't believe the students are ignorant. I just think they are innocent.","dateCreated":"1344798882","smartDate":"Aug 12, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MIRANDASH","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MIRANDASH","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1338145797\/MIRANDASH-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55780826","body":"To me it seemed like the hailsham students were &quot;Ignorant &quot; in order to maintain a sense of normalcy in their lives. I mean who would want to live a life where you know that in a few year you will be practically killed for your organs and that all you are to the world is a science experiment? I think that the students didn't say anything because they knew that finding out could be much much worse than they ever expected.","dateCreated":"1344967781","smartDate":"Aug 14, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MASONJ4","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MASONJ4","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55797316","body":"I disagree with the previous statement that the students are ignorant to maintain normalcy in their lives. I think that's like a doctor not telling a cancer patient that they have cancer and that they only have six months to live. As Ben said, if the students knew early on that they were created to donate their organs, they could've had more time to accept their purpose in life and embrace the future they have in store for them. Although it isn't an ideal lifestyle, I believe the students would have been better off knowing sooner rather than later, so that they have a chance of living what lives they have to the fullest.","dateCreated":"1345059088","smartDate":"Aug 15, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KRISTINES3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KRISTINES3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55798526","body":"To continue Kristine's point, Miss Lucy directly comments, &quot;If you're to have decent lives, you have to know who you are and what lies ahead of you, every one of you&quot; (81). The students are never left completely ignorant of their situations, they're raised to accept that their lives have already been planned out for them. Towards the end of the book, Ruth admits, &quot;I was pretty much ready when I became a donor. It felt right. After all, it's what we're supposed to be doing&quot; (227). The students come to understand that they are seen as less than humans and exist for medical purposes. I felt that Hailsham taught them to live with acceptance of their fate, rather than denial.","dateCreated":"1345066107","smartDate":"Aug 15, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HEATHERC2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HEATHERC2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55843507","body":" The students were not completely ignorant of their situation, and i don't think any students thought they were anything less than humans, only Kathy and Tommy know it. If they did know they were anything less than humans, they won't be surprised when Madame was scared just by seeing them. Ruth, Kathy and their friends were discussing about Madame when someone said, &quot;What do you mean, scared of us?&quot;someone asked. &quot;How can be scared of us? What could we do to her?&quot;(33). This tells that the kids didn't know they were clones, but they knew they were special.  Hailsham taught students to accept their fate.","dateCreated":"1345327719","smartDate":"Aug 18, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ANGELV17","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ANGELV17","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1285336143\/ANGELV17-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55849265","body":"Ignorance is most evident when the students are very young. Even as children the students know they could learn more, but simply choose not to ask the right questions. For example, on page 69 when the students question Miss Lucy on why they especially should not smoke cigarettes and Kathy says,&quot;We only needed to ask and Miss Lucy would have told us all kinds of things&quot;(69). This demonstrates the students ability to learn more but making the choice not to.","dateCreated":"1345399551","smartDate":"Aug 19, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"EMILYO12","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/EMILYO12","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55867545","body":"The ignorance of the students allows them to hope for  a better future than the one they are destined to have, or rather not have. Ignorance may be bliss, but   living life to the fullest regardless of one's fate is, in my opinion, better than bliss. I think the students should have been more informed of their inescapable situation than they were. Like Ben said, happiness is a choice; leaving them to discover the awful truth for themselves is major freight train factor.","dateCreated":"1345501084","smartDate":"Aug 20, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"JOELK3","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/JOELK3","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55882541","body":"I agree with Joel. Even though by being ignorant the students can have hope of a better future, thier lives are set in stone from the moment they are born and false hope isn't going to change that. But by telling them the truth, the students have the choice to make the best of the situation and be the happiest that they can be with the unfortunate circumstances that they are placed under. I think it's only fair to tell them the truth so they have a choice to lead a happy life.","dateCreated":"1345584658","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"MADISONL18","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/MADISONL18","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55908177","body":"I'm not saying ignorance is a bad thing, I feel in some situations its quite the opposite. As a child ignorance keeps one protected from the impurities of the world, but as one matures and still possesses the ignorance as a child it becomes a dangerous characteristic. I feel that the children's ignorance was taken advantage during their adolescence and by the time they realize that, &quot;We all know it. We\u2019re modelled from trash. Junkies, prostitutes, winos, tramps. Convicts, maybe, just so long as they aren\u2019t psychos. That\u2019s what we come from. We all know it, so why don\u2019t we say it?\u201d(166), their free will is so far gone that it's too late to speak out and stop their &quot;predetermined&quot; fate.","dateCreated":"1345686238","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"CAROLINEC13","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/CAROLINEC13","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55909477","body":"I agree that them being ignorant of the outside world is a good thing.  Because they don't know how the world works, they are able to create dream lives and live vicariously in a sense through there possibles.  Even though they don't know who there possibles are they like to imagine that they are the people that they want to be.  Ignorance also helps them from being unhappy.  They are just raised to be harvested for their organs. The fact that they are ignorant about things that normal people couldn't do without  helps them deal with donating.  If they tasted what normal people go through. than they would try to fight for a normal life.  Because they are ignorant they are able to happily carry on with their lives.","dateCreated":"1345690162","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KAYLAH95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KAYLAH95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55910039","body":"I completely agree with Joel. While they could live in ignorance and never know their true fate, they could have known, and either chosen to accept it, or attempt to change it. I thought it was interesting how at the end of the novel Kathy and Tommy accepted their fates so differently. Tommy is upset, confused, and angry, whereas Kathy is quiet and simply accepts her fate,","dateCreated":"1345692064","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"LUKEO1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/LUKEO1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":5}]},{"id":"55555290","dateCreated":"1343413415","smartDate":"Jul 27, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"BEATRICEC13","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/BEATRICEC13","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"},"monitored":false,"locked":false,"links":{"self":"https:\/\/mhsap2012.wikispaces.com\/share\/view\/55555290"},"dateDigested":1532653223,"startDate":null,"sharedType":"discussion","title":"Irony","description":"On page 282, as Tommy and Kath are discussing their lives, Tommy somberly explains to Kath how he feels.  He envisions two people in the river, \u201ctrying to hold onto each other, holding on as hard as they can, but in the end it\u2019s just too much.  The current is too strong.  They\u2019ve got to let go\u201d (282).  I really like this sentence because of its irony.  Obviously the title of the novel is Never Let Me Go; therefore readers assume the ending of the novel will result in an eternal relationship.  But in reality, it is quite the opposite. Though Tommy and Kath finally start seeing each other, their relationship does not last forever.  Tommy does not want Kath to see him as he completes his fourth donation and Kath does not seem to mind his request for her to leave.  Ironically, the main characters eventually let each other go.","replyPages":[{"page":0,"digests":[{"id":"55555954","body":"Yeah, I find that ironic, too. That point does give the novel an element of realism, though. Wanting a relationship to last is a completely human feeling that many people can relate to. Another point of irony is when Miss Emily says that she and Madame &quot;demonstrated to the world that if students were reared in humane, cultivated environments, it was possible for them to grow to be as sensitive and intelligent as any ordinary human being&quot; and that before Hailsham, the majority viewed clones as soulless keys to medical developments(261). This is ironic because on the contrary, these same clones grow to have all the same feelings and emotions as any human.","dateCreated":"1343415271","smartDate":"Jul 27, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KALIJ","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KALIJ","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55567572","body":"Kali, it's so interesting that you use the phrase &quot;completely human&quot; in this situation to describe Kathy and Tommy's desire for a relationship.  Ironically, we all know that they cannot experience all of the elements of a real human life.  I like the irony that Beatrice pointed out.  I too expected Tommy and Kathy to end up together.  The title is &quot;Never Let Me Go,&quot; implying a relationship that lasts forever.  Also, when Ruth insisted that they be together, I definitely expected a happy ending with them together.  <br \/>\nBecause I was expecting such a happy ending, I was extremely sad to read on and find out Tommy and Kathy's real fate--not each other.  I think this line really shows both sides of the irony: &quot;I was thinking about the rubbish, the flapping plastic in the branches, the shore-line of odd stuff caught along the fencing, and I half-closed my eyes and imagined this was the spot where everything I'd ever lost since my childhood has washed up, and I was now standing here in front of it, and if I waited long enough, a tiny figure would appear on the horizon across the field, and gradually get larger until I'd see it was Tommy, and he'd wave, maybe even call.  The fantasy never got beyond that--I didn't let it--and though the tears rolled down my face, I wasn't sobbing or out of control.  I just waited a bit, then turned back to the car, to drive off to wherever it was I was supposed to be&quot; (287-8).<br \/>\nSo, the irony is there because Kathy and Tommy don't physically end up together &quot;happy ever after.&quot;  However, the title holds true because Kathy clearly never lets go of Tommy in her heart.  She can still see him, but never lets herself see too much of him because she knows how affected she will be.  Though it's only in a mental\/emotional way, Kathy never seems to completely let go of Tommy.","dateCreated":"1343532825","smartDate":"Jul 28, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"KATHERINEA2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/KATHERINEA2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/pic\/1289436703\/KATHERINEA2-lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55571160","body":"&quot;I didnt exclaim, the way I'd been doing when I'd come across other items that had mildly excited me.I stood there quite still, looking at the plastic case, unsure whether or not I whether or not I was delighted. For a second it even felt like a mistake. The tape had been a perfect excuse for all this fun, and now it had turned up, and we had to stop&quot; (172). This situation is ironic because Kathy had been looking for the missing tape for years, but she displayed no excitement when a new one was found. To Kathy, the hunt for a new tape was only a fun game with Tommy and once they finally found the tape she was upset. Her adventure with Tommy had come to an end. She suddenly realized Tommy meant so much more to her than the tape.","dateCreated":"1343575660","smartDate":"Jul 29, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"AMANDAD24","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/AMANDAD24","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55620842","body":"&quot;But usually with Miss Emily nothing too awful would come out of it...you felt dreadful, just knowing you'd fallen in her estimation, and you wanted to do something straight away to redeem yourself&quot; (44). This is a great example of situational irony. In a quote above this one, it is explained that students' hearts would sink when they saw Miss Emily, which leads the reader to believe that the students would recieve the worst punishment from Miss Emily when in reality she did not hardly punish them at all. The irony in this situation illustrates that the students actually care what their teacher thinks of them, which makes them out to be &quot;not normal&quot; because normal teenagers wouldn't be greatly affected by their teacher's opinions of them.","dateCreated":"1343874683","smartDate":"Aug 1, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HAYLIEC1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HAYLIEC1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55889539","body":"One example of irony that I find amusing, but that also makes be feel somewhat sympathetic for the students at Hailsham, is their strong desire to understand what is going on around them and their complete failure at even attempting to find out. Kathy often times expresses her interest at understanding that which continues to elude every student, but she also joins in the fury against students who even mention things like Marcie in Mr. Roger's class.","dateCreated":"1345612351","smartDate":"Aug 21, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"GAGEW2","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/GAGEW2","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55897071","body":"I find that original quote to be quite depressing, actually. I think it's message (and possibly even the message of the whole novel) is that no matter how hard they try, two people cannot conquer the current and choose their own path. Perhaps this is because neither Kathy or Tommy are exactly human and therefore cannot experience the gratification that humans do from making their own path.","dateCreated":"1345653377","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"ALEXANDERF1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/ALEXANDERF1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55904455","body":"You can look at the quote from two aspects.  If the students are really to be considered human then this statement is just showing that people are subject to the will of their fate. But if they aren't considered human then it is highly ironic (as Beatrice said) because at the end of the day it doesn't even matter what the students have done in their lives, they all have the same unfortunate destiny.  For them there is really nothing to regret, in this case.","dateCreated":"1345674024","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"PATRICKMc1","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/PATRICKMc1","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}},{"id":"55906783","body":"When I initially read the story I thought that the students were at a boarding school. The subjects they learned were academically challenging and they were encouraged to express themselves artistically. Not until later, did I discover they were actually clones who were breed for organ donation. Even the term &quot;donors&quot; is ironic, because they had no choice in the matter they were born into this situation.","dateCreated":"1345682236","smartDate":"Aug 22, 2012","userCreated":{"username":"HANNAHU95","url":"https:\/\/www.wikispaces.com\/user\/view\/HANNAHU95","imageUrl":"https:\/\/ssl.wikicdn.com\/i\/user_none_lg.jpg"}}],"more":0}]}],"more":true},"comments":[]},"http":{"code":200,"status":"OK"},"redirectUrl":null,"javascript":null,"notices":{"warning":[],"error":[],"info":[],"success":[]}}